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| ~ ~ ~ Notes from Paper Lane: a GNE weblog | |
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| ~ ~ ~ Notes from Paper Lane: a GNE weblog | |
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We have crime in Stencilton! That is not news, it is a fact of life. Free will is inherent in humankind; it will manifest itself in people’s actions in the game, just as it does in real life. What can we do about it? Well, GNE is a good model to formulate and test solutions, and what we find successful we can carry into real life.
A player was robbed again yesterday, and quit the game. What follows is a chat log of the discussion that was triggered by the event. Please add your thoughts and/or feelings on the matter.
(read from bottom up)
metrocake: (Had to be said…)
kathryn: sweet dreams, moondawg
Gronk: well, RL possessions are often imaginary possessions too, I mean often ppl are stealing like $20 or some small items that dont’ really matter
Moondawg: gnite everyone. good talk! ; D
metrocake: And if you’re thieving, you already don’t want to interact, in a sense.
Moondawg: in the end, here they’re imaginary possessions….
metrocake: I don’t think shunning will work. Shunning only works when you *want* to interact.
Loli: (yay, maj)
majick: And our strongest asset, as well.
Gronk: I once had a friend where one stole from the other and I kind of talked them into making up and becoming friends again and guess what, it happened again
Loli: communication is our best defense
Gronk: some ppl are just thieving, no matter what you do
capodistria: yes. there has been that
majick: And we’re dealing with folks at a wide variety of maturity levels.
Moondawg: I don’t think he expected the outcry that occurred…
majick: There are personalities like that.
majick: Shunning could lead to acting out, for attention.
Moondawg: i think we scared him off…
Loli: Yes
Moondawg: *thick-headed*
Gronk: well, by all means warn ppl about those players then
capodistria: the scarlet letter loli?
Moondawg: lesson learned….
Loli: What seems to work the best is shunning the bad players
Moondawg: yeah, it all happened the same day, hour
Loli: well, we have tried vigilante justice, and hired guns…
Gronk: the same day he brought your stuff back?
Moondawg: the funny thing was that Rice was stealing from people that very day…
metrocake: Moon: OK, now that’s just wrong…
Gronk: LOL
Moondawg: he brought the stuff back eventually, but couldn’t understand why i wouldn’t let him in again…
Moondawg: He didn’t answer IMs for a long time. Everybody freaked out on him and he acted like he didn’t know any better.
Gronk: make him your enemy at least?
Gronk: did you call him on it?
majick: Casing the joint!
Moondawg: i’m just naturally like that. but now….
Loli: not good
metrocake: Moon: * No…. * Holy crap!
Gronk: oh, carrying stuff out of there? :)
Moondawg: …and i let him in. one second later, i was hit with realization
Moondawg: Newbie request entry to my house. I naturally let him in. 2 minutes later, i get another request from him.
Loli: ha
majick: Those are the best stories!
Moondawg: Here’s a good example of something i could have avoided. I feel stupid telling it…
Gronk: night Jason
Jason Illuran: rest well ya’ll
Moondawg: nite jason!
Loli: Bye, Jason!
Jason Illuran: or rather…later today
donalfall: nite jason
metrocake: *But*, what happens when….no, never mind…answered myself.
majick: G’night, Jason!
Jason Illuran: I’ll catch you all tomorrow.
Jason Illuran: okay folks, sleeptime for Jason.
metrocake: Majick: * Gee. * :)
Loli: That’s why I don’t do parties
majick: And there are *plenty* of public spaces.
Gronk: not RL and not here
Gronk: but I would never leave anything expensive laying around during a party
majick: That’s why we have public spaces, though.
Jason Illuran: I think we have to be prepared for the reality of the world to seep in here
Gronk: parties are hard, that’s true
Jason Illuran: but regardless
Jason Illuran: yeah, kind of
Gronk: well, you know who you let into your house and then when you come home and find everything’s gone, you kind of know who took it
Jason Illuran: especially during parties and such
Jason Illuran: as the game grows…
Loli: metro: hahahahaha!
Gronk: and they took it while you were in the kitchen making tea or something
Jason Illuran: yeah, but mostly, we don’t know who the others ARE
Gronk: even if you stupidly let them into your house
Moondawg: Hurts Donuts
Gronk: yeah but if somebody stole your TV, if you know who it was, you can go to the police
metrocake: Roshambo: “I’m gonna kick you in the nnnuuuttss!”
donalfall: lol
Moondawg: lol..
majick: Roshambo. This game needs roshambo.
Jason Illuran: there was no recourse for me
Moondawg: well, it depends what bad things you’re talking about…
Jason Illuran: today I was walking down the street with $500 in my pocket (getting ready to buy my TV) if it got taken…
majick: Perhaps so! Or at least an amusing and relatively binding way to settle differences of opinion.
Gronk: night metro
Jason Illuran: Moon> i’m not sure I agree
Moondawg: certainly
Jaen Padryga: night night
Jason Illuran: Moon> is there a defense for the good in the real world?
Jaen Padryga: and fun to be bad, as well
Jaen Padryga: but I do really like the game, and the people in it
Moondawg: if the ability to be “bad” is going to exist in the game, it should be built in such a way that there is a defense for the “good”
Jason Illuran: yeah, it’s half midnight here and I gotta work tomorrow
Jaen Padryga: I’m going to have to let you guys contemplate utopia without me
Jason Illuran: a code duello could be interesting
Jason Illuran: sometimes, yeah
Jaen Padryga: ooh its getting late
metrocake: Majick: So a code duello rather than a dumb prank?
Jaen Padryga: maj : I mean similar about risk
Jaen Padryga: mostly i don’t want to have to argue or fight with people
majick: cakey, hon, conflict is just one of many forms of human expression. It’s *how* conflict is expressed that matters to me. Form counts, to me!
donalfall: lol moon’
Moondawg: My idea of a utpoia is a resizable chat window…
Jaen Padryga: i think the variety will come when people can ‘make new’ items
majick: I don’t think I need to put my enjoyment of play on the line in order to have fun.
metrocake: Majick: But are you saying that you want variety without conflict?
Jason Illuran: I think GNE becomes more interesting when you can have things like a Spanish Prisoner Scam happen
majick: My idea of a *pleasant* utopia is one that includes variety. That doesn’t necessarily entail risk so much as new possibilities.
Jaen Padryga: risk also could mean difficulty level, like what happens after your level and cash are at suffiecient heights
Jason Illuran: metro> exactly
Jason Illuran: that’s frustrating
Jason Illuran: yeah, how many damn genomes have I gotta make to be able to make a GNE?
Moondawg: i think that for the most part the “bad” people we’re talking about were mostly just taking advantage of people’s trust to further themselves in the game.
metrocake: So if we’ll eventually have political parties, plural, then if everyone agrees, what will be the point?
donalfall: and some games frustrating
Jaen Padryga: or messing up a make with expensive ingredients
Jaen Padryga: people taking your things
donalfall: depends on your approach to play. risk makes some games *exciting*
Jaen Padryga: the biggest risk is
Jason Illuran: indeed, there is income for all here
Jaen Padryga: i don’t know
Jason Illuran: because what defines risk here?
Jaen Padryga: right now, money is free, items are not prohibitively priced
metrocake: We’re supposed to be thinking about political parties, yes?
Jason Illuran: I’m not sure
Jaen Padryga: do we want/require more risk?
capodistria: (am i being too easy-going? :))
metrocake: Dona: * yes. *
donalfall: metro - you mean sterile? lifeless utopianism
Jaen Padryga: ;)
Gronk: don’t remember who I did it to anymore but I felt really bad about it and gave him all my coloured papers in compensation :)
capodistria: ok. i see that.
Jaen Padryga: Work, put em all to work
tovah: you’re welcome :)
metrocake: Capo: hard to articulate, I’m thinking. There’s utopian and then there’s…*too* Utopian. Which can lead to stagnation.
Gronk: I made that mistake once :)
Jason Illuran: yeah, but that’s part of learning
Jaen Padryga: well, nice new players might not need to know more than, don’t activate the new economy near people
capodistria: metro: whats wrong with that?
Jason Illuran: yeah, but it can also be more intimidating than it has to be
Jaen Padryga: Consequences can be fun
Jason Illuran: we’re back at the “consequences” thing
metrocake: Capo: In our approach to game play, I think we are. :/
donalfall: capo - don’t think anyone could make *that* accusation
capodistria: does expectation of civility make you homogenous
Jason Illuran: no, but that’s not because there’s a lack of standards.
Gronk: RL society has laws too but you can still be an individual
capodistria: are we a homogenous bunch?
Jaen Padryga: I think the nice people make the game nicer, but do not think, or expect everyone to be nice
donalfall: not homogenity, but boundries, surely
Jaen Padryga: freedom vs establishment
Jason Illuran: is that normal?
Jason Illuran: yeah, but if we’re really enforcing homogeneity, is that a good thing?
majick: The only successful online communities — paid or free — seem to be those with relatively tightly-controlled standards of behavior where the threat of ejection is real.
Jason Illuran: uyeah, but who’s going to want to admin then?
Jaen Padryga: administration is rife with such trifles
Jason Illuran: It’s always someone’s problem, THAT is the problem.
Loli: We had that occur
Jaen Padryga: well, that’s an admin problem then. if people are being harassed…
Jason Illuran: welcome to real life, part 2
Jaen Padryga: consequences imposed, not by other members but by npc’s
Jason Illuran: consequences don’t always work
Jaen Padryga: well, thats why consequences are good
Jason Illuran: that asshole thought he had a golden pass because he was a paid member
Gronk: people who manage to become everybody’s enemy will probably not continue to pay
donalfall: true but you’re hardly likely to pay to be uncooperative in a cooperative game.
kathryn: who believe they have a right to play as they want
Jason Illuran: the last group I was involved with was a paid group
kathryn: or payment may result in superthieves
Jason Illuran: Jaen> not always
Loli: Smooches, Jason!
Jason Illuran: where there is good, there is also evil
Jaen Padryga: payment does weed out a lot of the annoying peole anyway
Jason Illuran: but it’s like the jedi and sith
Jason Illuran: sorry to borrow a bad pun…
Loli: some will turn bad anyway, but for the most part it works out
Moondawg: i suspect that the people who will pay (and continue to pay) for this game will be mostly alright..
Jaen Padryga: some making tasks could be small, and then some would require insano making
Jason Illuran: I learned much from you
Jason Illuran: Loli, indeed you are right
Loli: I firmly believe in teaching newbies, like you teach children - if you nurture and assist, they will learn that is the way…
majick: There is a problem of social bandwidth. You can’t make friends with a crowd, only with people.
Jaen Padryga: that would be required to make a node
Jaen Padryga: which would require many people making lots of things
Jaen Padryga: well, first a node, an empty one
Bobby Bellsy: I think Jean has a good idea…mabey like a garden for your node?
Jaen Padryga: and then a sense of pride
majick: Yes and no. It isn’t so much noise, as it’s a limitation of the human mind — it’s *hard* to form several hundred relatively intimate connections!
Moondawg: but wherever there’s a “good” majority there will be people who purposely deviate
metrocake: (Hey, check it out, it’s like we’re all in ancient Greece or something…)
Jaen Padryga: it’d be a large and difficult task, but enable each gne to make itself
Jason Illuran: because the nature of the game is both individual AND community, there are greater dualities involved.
Jaen Padryga: encouraging people to pitch in
donalfall: making a node - nice idea.
Loli: That’s why I help all lower level players
metrocake: Maj: It’s “signal to noise.”
Jaen Padryga: or road
Jaen Padryga: like being able to help ‘make’ a node
majick: It’s the “mailing list problem.” As soon as a group gets beyond a certain, possibly arbitrary size, it becomes more unpleasant than pleasant to deal with.
Jaen Padryga: i think that big making projects that require more than one maker would help community aspects
Jason Illuran: especially at lower levels
Jason Illuran: there are ways that just trend toward personal achievement
donalfall: hear hear maj
Jason Illuran: while the society is often benefitted by actions…
Loli: agree
Loli: second majick
Jason Illuran: Loli> but only to a degree.
majick: Like *any* community, and especially any online community, there is a point at which S:N ratio suffers and there are simply too many people to keep track of. It’s the current intimacy that I really like. You people are fun!
Loli: But Jason - even with a capital system, we tend toward communism
Jaen Padryga: i like making
Jason Illuran: capo> me too
capodistria: im not here to compete for dollars or beat up other users. I am here to indulge my sense of play.
Jason Illuran: we’re going to have to adapt to thjat
Jason Illuran: as the game gets more crowded…
Jason Illuran: and a capital system…
Jason Illuran: but with limited resources…
Jason Illuran: I don’t want to worry about that here.
donalfall: :)
Loli: poor jas
Jason Illuran: because he was such a cock.
Jason Illuran: He ruined my online time
Jason Illuran: I had an experience a few months back, where I had to deal with someone who was less than wonderful IRL.
majick: If I want to sit and chat with Nthousand people, I can break out an IRC client.
Moondawg: i kind of get a kick out of someone just being “evil”. to a degree anyway…
donalfall: also unfortuneately true. hear hear maj
Jaen Padryga: won’t being on many peoples ‘enemy’ list be a detriment?
Jaen Padryga: well the social index will be part of that
Loli: agree, maj
capodistria: i agree with majick :D
metrocake: Human players = human element, and not everyone’s going to be nice.
Gronk: heh donalfall, you could have a job in GNE
majick: To be quite honest, the relatively small, cohesive and managable size of the group is one of the things that makes the prototype worth playing.
metrocake: Gronk: But at the same time, you’re playing with *human* players.
Jason Illuran: indeed
donalfall: i consult on physical security in real life - don’t want to be doing the same thing in GNE
Jaen Padryga: i agreen jason
Gronk: well, I already have RL so if I can’t have utopia, than why take time from my RL to play some other kind of RL?
Jason Illuran: I would really like to see there be a private room in each house.
metrocake: Well, that’s the thing The beta *was* utopia.
Jason Illuran: there’s a privacy requirement
Moondawg: this beta is kind of a utopia, you know? the real game will be more “real” that way..
capodistria: majick: maybe the past here was too idyllic and insular and now things have to change to accomodate reality.
Jason Illuran: and while I share lots of stuff…
Jason Illuran: I have no secure storage
Jason Illuran: since I don’t have the luxury of a private room…
Jason Illuran: yeah, so long as I have at least seen them about
tovah: but most of the time i have no problem allowing someone to go in
Jason Illuran: Exactly.
metrocake: Jason: But that’s not necessarily *wrong.* You’d do that in real life, no?
tovah: me too
Jason Illuran: I’ve been known to refuse people entry because I’d never as so much said hello before
Jaen Padryga: building permits for adding on to houses!
majick: I think people are a little hesitant to refuse entry. It goes somewhat against the friendly, open nature of the way most of us play.
metrocake: * perk * Front porch = nifty…
Jason Illuran: better.
Moondawg: oh, i want a house with a porch!
Gronk: yeah
Moondawg: front porch!
metrocake: Moon: You’re right, sorry. :P
tovah: that seems simple enough
tovah: the houses are locked…how about just not letting them in if you have valuables in there?
Jaen Padryga: yeah, i’d love to be able to lock the bedroom
Moondawg: but there’s a difference between taking some food and cleaning out 3 rooms…
metrocake: …and I’m not eating it all!
Jason Illuran: maybe make a foyer that’s more equivocal
metrocake: I’ve *still* got 1,100 pieces of pizza in my sewing room…
majick: I’ve opened a discussion topic.
Jason Illuran: metro> that’s fine, but I think we can allways alter that as well
Jaen Padryga: you could give stuff to them
metrocake: Jason: Unless it’s in my private closet, I *expect* things in my house to be removed.
Jaen Padryga: inside your house
Jaen Padryga: oh, how about, non aq or friends can’t take
Jason Illuran: do you really want people who aren’t designated friend, or at least, acquaintance taking stuff?
Moondawg: or you actually give them the things
metrocake: The 10 Commandments of GNE: Thou shalt not take stuff from others’ houses unless you tell them you can
Jason Illuran: then perhaps you pay that price
Jaen Padryga: what if you want people to get things from you
Jaen Padryga: well, they don’t have to stay there
Jason Illuran: perhaps picking something up in a non-friend’s house ought to lower karma?
Jaen Padryga: i think that karma bonus’s on give should be varied, is that in the works?
Jason Illuran: the idea of slapping someone in jail…doesn’t appeal.
Loli: I will save chat
capodistria: but..over the past few days we have seen some users who are just here to make trouble and thrive on conflict. Luckily, and this may be the nature of the game, most have gotten bored, not gotten the response they hoped for and went away
Jaen Padryga: i love surreal
Loli: ok
Jason Illuran: consequences, while real, are more subdued and surreal here.
tovah: maybe just a statement abour how real life code of ethics applies here too.
metrocake: Include an incentive: read the information, get a blue sheet. :)
Jaen Padryga: i like consequences, good and bad
Loli: Can do!
Jason Illuran: add it to paperlane
Jason Illuran: make it a separate website
Moondawg: “you make the genomes, then put them in my house”
Loli: good
metrocake: I’d still ask for the information booth — maybe in Centraal Station?
Jaen Padryga: well, i understand that the goal is to appeal to several types of gameplay
Jason Illuran: I would too
Loli: (yay, metro)
tovah: sounds good capodistria
metrocake: I’d do it.
Loli: me
capodistria: .. a list of users (I’d volunteer) that you as a newbie can feel free to IM and can be trusted
Jason Illuran: consequences will shun more people
metrocake: It’s a balance thing. We don’t want to cram things down people’s throats; at the same time, if people are getting upset because of others’ ignorance, then how can we tweak it?
Jaen Padryga: so perhaps what some people want is consequences
Jason Illuran: we all suffer from that
tovah: exactly!
Moondawg: [kidding]
donalfall: hahahahaha moon.
Jason Illuran: tovah> live, learn, make up for it in the long term
Jaen Padryga: well, there is a jail
tovah: i didn’t know if there even were rules at first.
Loli: no
Moondawg: how about a battery of tests to determine aptitude and IQ…
tovah: hey, for all i know i might have accidentally “stolen” somethjng from someone when i was a newbie…
Jaen Padryga: if they wanted to mentor, guide, advise, give
Jason Illuran: this is more of a game without a manual
Jaen Padryga: well, non-new users could hang out there
Loli: Yay, cap
capodistria: how about a special ‘mentor’ designation for some users
Jaen Padryga: i have no problem with places that only allow people of lvl+ to enter
Jason Illuran: this is a lot like real life, learn, live, experiment
Loli: No
Jason Illuran: no, we don’t want a corral of newbies
Jaen Padryga: let you leave until you level up to 2
donalfall: tovah - gotcha, sorry. your dead right
Jason Illuran: so can a room full of n00bs.
Jaen Padryga: perhaps a few hubs that don
Moondawg: like freshman orientation, but less beer.
tovah: chat can be intimidation
donalfall: I’m only on about 4 days and found everyone really helpful. some people just don’t get the group thing as said
Jaen Padryga: i can make new things with higher skill
Jason Illuran: isn’t that what the chat is for?
Jaen Padryga: the making skill makes sense
tovah: like an information center
tovah: not segregation…just a place to go for some help
Loli: haha, metro
metrocake: No, no, not to keep them in. Like an information center.
Jason Illuran: why call attention to newbies like that? They could fall prey to trickery
Jaen Padryga: whats the point in leveling
Gronk: I have a junk house I’ve been filling with all kinds of stuff for whoever needs it and I noticed just now that it’s been completely cleaned out of all things with resale value
Jaen Padryga: i was thinking about levels today
Loli: Yay, moondawg!
donalfall: nah, thats segregation
tovah: that might be nice
metrocake: Like LambdaMOO’s?
metrocake: Wait, what about a special hub for newbies?
Jason Illuran: there’s all kinds of possibilities for people to be bad as WELL as good
Moondawg: if i see someone having a problem or a lot of questions, i usually go right to IM
Jaen Padryga: there will prolly be factions that different kinds of players can work on
tovah: fun!
Jaen Padryga: and eventually, parties or religions
Loli: YAY, maj!
majick: Just so, cakey: some people are *not* going to reach out to the community. But a portion of those folks would probably respond to being individually approached. Not everybody digs a crowd!
Jaen Padryga: it could just be part of a big sign that people see when they first log in. not really rules persay, we are allowed to have enemies
Loli: metro: we explain it to them
Gronk: I don’t leave stuff laying around that I care about
Jason Illuran: then you treat it like you would treat a friend who didn’t know better
Jason Illuran: it’s a lot like LIFE that way
Jason Illuran: or figuring them out yourselves…
metrocake: But — if they don’t ask, and just *do,* then what?
capodistria: benny didnt seem to want help. he wanted to solve the problem on his own and then i guess gave up in frustration
tovah: most people wont ask though
Jason Illuran: yeah, but part of this game is learning to ask questions
majick: I’ll go start a topic.
metrocake: I think the thing is, we’re all good at answering people’s questions — when they ask.
donalfall: gronk - i dunno, he wouldn’t say
Jaen Padryga: i just try to be nice to most everyone, works better than being upset with people ‘beating’ me to items
Loli: I always check players info to see their level, and explain things to them if they are new
majick: Hi caterina! I’d be happy to bring this up in discussion.
Moondawg: i think we do a fairly good job at helping out new folks
Jaen Padryga: serenity is always zooming up to new users with help and advice
metrocake: Caterina: * good. *
Jason Illuran: ^5s Loli
caterina: one of the jobs in the big game will be ‘guides’
Gronk: if somebody stole from him, why not tell us who did so we could make sure not to let that person in?
Jason Illuran: well, people are often on at specific times, too
tovah: it took me a good week of just sitting back and watching to understand this place enough to feel like i could join in.
Loli: Hey, I have been mentoring
metrocake: Sometimes I can’t tell who’s a newbie — I saw some people this afternoon that I’d *never* seen before, at higher levels than me.
Loli: moondawg:hahahaha
Jaen Padryga: well, some people have really been doing that
caterina: majick, can you record some of these ideas and post it to the discussion area?
donalfall: dunno. he’s been on about as long as I have tonite. 8 hours? probably really tired
tovah: not a bad idea
majick: even go so far as to say “mentoring.” Just reach out to that crowd of (?) people and make them feel at home.
Moondawg: “Hi, I’ll be your GNE guide”
Jaen Padryga: perhaps new users should get notes that talk about general culture of stencilton
metrocake: Jaen: Hmmmmm. :)
capodistria: majick: i do that. loli does that as well as others here. but theres too many of them :)
tovah: yea, that sucks, but instead of leaving, why not try to fix the problem?
Gronk: so why’d he still let ppl in?
majick: I wouldn’t
Moondawg: newbie mentoring…
Jaen Padryga: or even just their first 5 logins
donalfall: he was working for ages on stuff and then it was being taken every time
Jaen Padryga: like physical yea
Moondawg: true tovah
Penguinix: first login date?
Jaen Padryga: oh, well a week
tovah: why would he leave just because someone stole from him? is it THAT big of a deal?
metrocake: Jaen: Thing is, someone could come on, play for 12 hours straight, and get up to level 8-10. So how do you define newbie?
majick: We each need to take the time to sit down and hang out with someone new, explain things to them, make new friends. Not everybody is going to reach out to the crowd. It’s pretty weird joining a group of strangers, and some folks are going to be less adept at integrating themselves.
Loli: Can anyone contact Benny?
Jaen Padryga: so we can be nicer
Jaen Padryga: perhaps they could have a N symbol to show they are new for a week or so
Moondawg: agree maj
metrocake: Tovah: I do think that’s it.
Jaen Padryga: when did enrollment begin again?
Loli: right
majick: We really ought to redouble our efforts to help new folks understand and join the community. If stuff like this is going on, it’s really our own damned fault for letting it happen.
Jaen Padryga: wouldn’t building permits be nice.
Loli: ditto, metrocake
tovah: maybe they think that if you let them into your house it’s all up for grabs…
Jaen Padryga: I don’t have a closet, will just have to be careful
metrocake: I don’t think they would understand about houses. If you have a private closet (as I do), then you keep your important stuff in that. But a lot of people don’t.
Loli: Can anyone contact Benny?
Bobby Bellsy: That doesnt go for all “newbies” some people mothers thaught them better!
Gronk: well, there are thieves in RL too, last time I moved, all my clothes got stolen
capodistria: some do though and are stealing intentionally
majick: And they’re not indoctrinated into the culture, as well.
Loli: It happens - newbies don’t understand about houses
Jaen Padryga: thats not too cool.
Moondawg: it happened to me too, but i suppose it was my own fault for letting people in…
Jaen Padryga: oh, house stealing things
majick: Well, that’s why you be careful about strangers!
tovah: how did they get into the houses in the first place?
Gronk: supposedly they can’t get into ppl’s houses without asking
metrocake: I don’t know. Others who were on (Plurp? Povx?) said they were familliar with it, too. People going in and taking stuff from others’ houses without asking.
majick: “stealing?”
Gronk: who stole from him?
Jaen Padryga: oh no :(
tovah: what do you mean stealing?
Moondawg: wow
donalfall: don’t know what happened. he said he wouldn’t come back
metrocake: This is the second time today I’m hearing about stealing newbies. What the hell is going on?
Thorn: must be why he had the garage sale
Jaen Padryga: will he come back?
Bobby Bellsy: Gutenacht
capodistria: what happened?
donalfall: benny was really pissed.
tovah: newbies who steal?
Loli: Benny! Don’t go!
caterina: nite!
donalfall: dammit
metrocake: Say what?
Benny: This is Benny signing off for good. All of you please have fun and beware newbies who steal.capodistria: ooh! garage sale!
Benny: I just cleaned out all my spare junk at my house and left it on my lawn in marvin gardens please help yourselfMoondawg: Benny, you’ve been acting psychotically….
Benny: YOU WANT TO CROSS ME AGAIN???
I think the idea of *a* culture in Stencilton is either silly or odious. It sounds so much like “we” will inform “them” what “our” culture is and make sure “they” follow it.
Look. It’s a game. It has rules in the sense that there are things you can do and things you can’t. But “they” are just as much a part of the culture as “we” are.
Within the game, there is a perfect solution to people stealing your stuff: don’t leave it where it can be stolen. Keep it in a private closet (of which the developers should probably make more if this is a real problem), or don’t let people into your house that you don’t trust.
No one gets worked up if they leave a nice pie in Civic Center and come back the next day to find that it is gone. Is it that, by calling that game object a “house”, you think it has all the real properties, both physical and cultural, of a house in the real world? It doesn’t. It’s just a game location with rules about who can get into it.
I think it’s a fine idea to talk to players and try to form a culture of one kind or another. I also think it’s fine to have enforcement. I’ve seen certain powerful players punish miscreants with severe point losses from multiple marshmallow daggers. Is this vigilantism? Sure. Would fights and gangs become common if this became widespread? Possibly. If institutionalized, would it look like a government? Probably.
Then that, too, would be the culture of Stencilton.
I second everything Plurp just said.
Just because you’ve been around for a little while doesn’t mean you can dicatate what forms of behaviour are acceptable.
I think that GNE should be a vehicle for tolerance, and not self-aggrandisement. But I’ll defend your right to disagree with me.
I agree with Plurp and his comments. On a side-note: I think Benny over-reacted in leaving the game, but he is entitled to that. [Benny! I’d hope you’d come back since some of us “older-folk” will happily replenish your lost items.] If I had a red piece of paper for every time someone stole something from me, I’d be rich…
Yeah, so there you go. It’s part of the game. Now back when I was one of the “newbies” GNE was much more idyllic…quixotic. It isn’t now, so what? I find change enjoyable because it gives me another challenge to overcome, an opportunity to come up with a creative solution to the “problem.”
Things change, and in the real game if someone steals from your house, there won’t be the same global chat where you can vent your frustrations. So whatcha gonna, watcha gonna do when they come form you? Call the GNE cops? Perhaps. But maybe there is a better way to “retaliate.” Maybe you can make them a disciple of “Gee-zeus.” Maybe you can hire a “hit-man.” Perhaps go to a support-group and express your feelings.
All of “these” things have happened on a very informal and small-scale…hit men, support groups, “the niceness cult,” etc. I look forward to seeing these groups and activities on a grand scale in the real game.
Finally – if there is going to be a “government” or “police” type organization – how can you prove “crime?” Will the developers create some kind of “activity log” which turns into a non-counterfeit-able note [non-counterfeit-able?] that the “victim” can turn in? Will there be GNE “forensics?”
Right now it’s all hearsay. I can scream and shout on global chat that Plurp stole all my chickens [even though he didn’t] and who’s to say he did or didn’t? One thing is certain – that “crime” fits his MO. Time to place wanted ads…10 Brown Papers – Plurp the Chicken Thief – Wanted – Dead or Squeezed, Tarred and Feathered.
Ooh! Squeeze me!
More thoughts on culture and rules, because GNE seems to be down at the moment. :-)
If the gods want to prevent an activity, they should make it impossible within the context of the game. They have that power, after all (modulo bugs).
If they wish to discourage an activity, they should make it easy (or at least possible) to avoid. If they don’t like theft, they should make private spaces (like your backpack, or your house). If they want people to be able to invite thieves into their houses and still not have things stolen, they should invent private closets. Oh! They have!
There has been discussion recently about how players deal with scarce resources, like Compulsion and Desire. Some players, we’ll call them Farmers, sit at the site at which a scarce resource grows, and grab it when it does. Another contingent, we’ll call them Ranchers, like to run around the map, dipping into locations where things grow as they pass by, and pick up anything they find along the way.
The problem? The Ranchers claim that the Farmers grab those scarce growing things before they can come by and grab them. The Farmers claim that the Ranchers don’t share the stuff they grab on the run. This had engendered debate about whose playing style is superior (in some unnamed sense) - the Farmers or the Ranchers - and whose playing style should be allowed, encouraged, discouraged, or forbidden.
Huh?
The rules allow both styles. One or the other may be more effective, given some goal or other. Period.
If the gods wish to discourage Farmers, they have many options. They can eliminate scarce resources (or at least offer a variety of them, rather than the extremely narrow Web/genome/money choice in the current game). They can make scarce resources grow in random locations. They can wreak vengeance on players who sit in one place and gather stuff that grows. Whatever.
If the gods wish to discourage Ranchers, they can make scarce resources grow only rarely, in huge quantity, in known locations. Or they can make the frenetic travelers expend huge amounts of energy in moving from one place to another, and decrease the amount of free food that grows here and there.
The point is, there are ways that the gods can encourage or discourage whatever behavior they wish. Surely we must assume that the gods are smart enough to do so. And if it their will is to leave the choice up to us meager players, surely we must assume that all possibilities are allowed, and it is up to us to choose the strategy that is best for us as individual players.
This is not an issue of right and wrong, not an issue that needs to be “settled”, and certainly not an issue of culture, or allowed behavior.
I’ve tried to explain to non-GNE players, veterans of other online games like AC2, the values of the GNE - how we have these parties where it’s impolite to consume all the absinthe lying on the ground at once, why the first Farmer to grab spawned loot will often give a cut to the other Farmers waiting around, etc. and am met with utter incomprehension. Let’s not underestimate how anomalous GNE’s culture had become by the end of the first round of testing! It seems almost inevitable that, now that the second wave of newbies has begun, the values we’ve established are being called into question. I’m pretty sure that a lot of the new players who’ve been acting out in aggravating ways (e.g. Tseran kidnapping the Fierov Heights Xmas tree) are pretty cool people who’re just trying to shake things up a little and carve a niche for themselves in a society that may seem dauntingly clique-ish.
I really don’t like visitors taking my stuff, but it’s a risk I take due to my open door policy. I’ve been robbed twice and both times it was due to letting a level 1 player in without even IMing him to say “Hey, feel free to look around but please don’t touch.” (I had a note on the ground to that effect - the note got taken too!) Not that I think the IM would’ve helped, but just to underscore the fact that it was at least partially my own fault.
But we do get something from thieves - fodder for conversation, new home management strategies,… if I’d never been robbed, the game wouldn’t even have colored eggs. I don’t think we need to lose any sleep over these players. Let’s just sit back and watch and see where this takes us.
[Inspoetica tarred and feathered a Plurp]
energy -200: That Plurp was massive!
mood +10: Now that it’s been feathered, the Plurp resembles nothing so much as an… enormous chicken?
karma +10: The Plurp stretches its new wings and flaps away towards the Burplands.
PS> I think it’s awesome Loli started this thread, it’s an important issue that needs some debating.
PPS> Am I the only one who feels a little weird about global chat logs being posted in a public, Google-able forum?
I’m glad Plurp likes to be squeezed.
My two red papers on this issue of “farming” and “ranching.” Ranching wins. Why? Because you can get “more” things while moving about the map. All you need to know is WHEN things replenish. Once you know that - you can sneak up and snatch the goods from under the poor farmers nose. Ranching made me my first million. Buy my book for more strategies!
Oh, and Orbst had a GREAT strategy. Wait for the ambitious/hard working folk to get rich, then wait for them to share their wealth. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant - because it works, and you don’t even get carpal tunnel.
What kind of eggs do Plurps lay?
I do think that the issue of theft is a valid one, though I think that higher discussions about “culture” and whatnot are best left to the GNE culture that arises from the players. I think Meta discussions tend to be kind of self-defeating and, frankly, a waste of time.
The real issue here is one of game mechanics: In the game, you have levels of security. The stuff you are carrying can’t be stolen, but you can only carry 300. Stuff in your house can only be stolen if you let someone in, which puts the more trusting and helpful players at risk (rather like real life, don’t you think?). You can protect your stuff with a closet, but not all the houses have closets and there aren’t enough houses in the game for players to be able to pick and choose the houses with closets.
Also, and I’ll just throw this one out there… Newbies may think that stuff in houses gets spawned there by the devs. I think I swiped some stuff from Jason Illuran (nothing tremendously valuable, IIRC) my first time simply because I wasn’t sure how the universe worked yet. Fortunately, Jason knows me and didn’t mind.
I think newbie education will go far with the people who really do want to play nice and not offend. But as the player group grows larger, the devs really ought to give every house at least one private closet. Right now, the carrying/storing limitations of the game can be a serious hassle. Not a fun one, either.
Culture is how the inhabitants live—including the occasional theft. I trust most players, knowing that some folks (mostly newbies) will steal, and hitnk they’re cool and clever for doing it. C’est la vie.
The miraculous thing is that we’ve built a culture where theft can be an outrage, rather than an expectation.
The gamespace is what it is, and if almost all of us abjure theft and communicate that attitude, the game will reflect that. If our play is filled with fear and suspicion, we’ll communicate the expectation that people will steal. . . .
viva rancheros!!
speaking of which, please mr.God, eric anyone! make it come back on! i’m only some 4 browns away from world domination *boohoo*
I have the ultimate theft-prevention scheme: I gave all of my possessions away, and am determined to survive on tidbits I happen upon (and gorge on the odd side of beef). Combined with a form of fusion, I’ve found all the wealth I’ll ever need.
Level 7 seems to be a Good Level, so I think I’ll stay there for a while.
** What is stealing? **
Would you leave a purple paper lying in your house and then let just anyone in? Of course not, nobody does, there’s too much time invested in making it. Therefore the whole ‘theft’, ‘discovery’, ‘outrage’ & subsequent furore are all part of the game experience because the items left around are of relatively low value.
** Guides **
It has been suggested that ‘guides’ are available to introduce new players to the GNE experience.
Change ‘introduce’ to ‘indoctrinate’ and ‘experience’ to ‘culture’ and you have my thoughts on this.
Don’t get me wrong; I like the system of GNE ‘karma’ & ‘giving’ but this is designed into the game & does not need to be reinforced.
The use of guides would allow for individual moral ethics to be instilled into new, inexperienced players. Is that bad? Well some guides may feel it acceptable to bring a new player up a few levels while some wouldn’t. Some may instruct on the best ways to make XP, skill & cash…. You get my meaning. I developed my gaming technique by trial, error & watching. Don’t devalue that.
** Abuse **
I feel that moderation may soon be necessary. Continual verbal or sexual abuse would have to be curtailed.
However players will soon be ‘paying customers’, it is not acceptable or financially viable to alienate these people.
I would suggest that a system of worldwide moderators for different time zones be introduced; the advantage for them would be free game-play.
Their total impartiality would have to be guaranteed therefore they ONLY act on abuse not on interaction problems or squabbles. (personal moral codes must not influence the play otherwise there is no consistency in the game) Their sanction would be say, 5, 10, 20, 60 minute boot-off’s after giving sufficient warnings in ‘godlike’ manner. The ultimate sanction would be a permanent ban of course but only after consultation with the Luudus management board..
** In-Game policing **
I have been verbally abused in the past, my solution was to engage in a stabbing war. I enjoyed it, it gave me ‘satisfaction & validation’ I think the abuser kind of enjoyed it too. The abuse terminated and we play as normal now.
This has been called ‘violence’ well it is not – it makes coloured bars at the top of the screen go up and down and is personal between the parties concerned.
The alternative, which has been mentioned, is a “name and shame” policy, are we *really* going to advocate public humiliation of paying customers as a solution to problems? I think this is wholly unacceptable.
For extreme cases of abuse etc I would advocate;
A “Dagger of Retribution”.
It costs say 3 million dollars, can only be used once before nebulating into something else, however its use causes the wielder to lose say 10,000 XP, and the victim to lose say 3 million XP or an amount commensurate with level. The high cost of purchase & use actually reflect the seriousness of the situation that has occurred
We the players must police ourselves and not rely on ‘un-elected authority’ and ‘others’ moral attitudes’ to solve our social interaction problems.
Sorry the post is so long, I hope you managed to read it before yawning and going off to do something more exciting like watching paint drying… or getting rid of the cats hairballs…
Best Regards Trad.
One quick comment on moderators: They should be anonymous; players appeal to God, get replies from God but never know who the moderator is. This prevents a culture of deference or kudos developing - and will be more fun for everyone…
Oh! I like what Traducer has said, and it has given me an idea!
Like the minor karma bonus when giving things to people, perhaps, a minor karma penalty when /stealing/ things in people’s homes?
That wouldn’t deter an intentional thief, but, for someone who doesn’t know the difference between a house and any old lot, it might spark something?…
Yeoz, I don’t think it’s possible to programmatically distinguish between theft and legitimate use (e.g. “Hey, can you stop by my house and pick up some compulsion for me, so I can make genomes while I’m waiting for blue papers to spawn?”).
Also, we have to remember that taking things from people’s houses is perfectly legal within the context of the game implementation, so I’m still not sure it needs to be punished by the game itself. (As far as I’m concerned the only illegal behaviors are those you have to hack in order to accomplish.)
Trad’s Dagger of Retribution is hilarious, and his argument for its use, compelling. It now seems almost inevitable to me that something like this will be created by plyaers in the big game.
I’ve had three random strangers knock on my door when I wasn’t home.
In the first case I let the person in out of generic unthinking friendliness, but then ran home to watch them in case they took something. They didn’t; they said that they were just trying to get to absolutely every possible accessible place (including all houses), and they left pretty quick.
The second time I ran home first and then let the person in. They seemed quite confused and unresponsive, and then exited the game. This made me very nervous! (Can people who exit in your house still re-enter and be in your house when you’re not even logged on?) Fortunately, they came back after just a few minutes, saying they’d exited due to computer problems.
They were a very clueless newbie, and did eat a little chocolate and fiddle with some more valuable stuff before they finally realized what my subtle hints about “this is my stuff” actually meant. *8)
The third time I just IMd saying “sorry, I’m not home right now”, and refused them entrance. I’ve decided that allowing random strangers to come into your house isn’t required even by my sometimes radical notion of niceness…
Rogue? Scoundrel? Misunderstanding? As a new denizen, I know that I am still unclear about when God is kind enough to supply things on a periodic basis and when it is the fruits of someone else’s hard work [repop vs stash]. I am certain that I consumed a dozen nice fish & chips meals before realizing that they might not be deistic gifts (this was before I even knew that I *could* make fish & chips!)… perhaps a little “guide to your new life” might help this incidental thievery, which is perhaps tolerable with a few newbies per week, but will become grossly unmanageable when AOL starts sending boatloads of new residents en masse.
Just my two shekels.
Yes Kyle, a guide is in the works, and you will be able to find it at paperlane.net - your trusted authority on all things GNE related. (How was that, Selva?)